tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post123232665829990679..comments2023-08-22T07:01:08.590-07:00Comments on Agent Intellect: Better Never To Have Been (Written)Jim S.http://www.blogger.com/profile/15538540873375357030noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post-86545081822131425342010-09-02T11:44:10.483-07:002010-09-02T11:44:10.483-07:00Sorry to take so long to respond CM, I've been...Sorry to take so long to respond CM, I've been swamped. I don't think your question does still apply. If someone did not have the freedom to deny God, then there would be no problem of hell, even though they existed. So, again, the problem isn't a problem of <i>existence</i> but of <i>freedom</i>, and freedom with regard to a particular issue: the ability to reject God. This has further application beyond the problem of hell; it has a great deal of relevance to the larger problem of evil.<br /><br />Jake's reference to Agent Orange is about a chemical agent used against people in the Vietnam War. Some of the people exposed to it had children years later who were affected (so I've heard, never having investigated it), so he was pointing out how it harmed people who did not yet exist.Jim S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15538540873375357030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post-73888783768509602452010-08-22T00:37:42.997-07:002010-08-22T00:37:42.997-07:00jacob -
I'm not sure who Agent Orange is, bu...jacob - <br /><br />I'm not sure who Agent Orange is, but your question is indeed addressed in the book, and you actually seem to have the same view of harm as David Benatar. Technically, existence need not be harmful, but, as he points out, it so happens that in this reality, every life contains harmful experiences and/or death. That is why coming into existence is always a harm (for the exister). <br /><br />Professor Benatar claims (uncontroversially) that <br /><br />(1) the presence of pain is bad<br />and<br />(2) the presence of pleasure is good. <br /><br />But his main argument for why coming into existence is a <i>net</i> harm is the asymmetry of pleasure and pain (as examples of benefit and harm, not as the only values that matter), which, as he argues, underlies many of our moral judgments:<br /><br />(3) the absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed<br />by anyone,<br />but<br />(4) the absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody<br />for whom this absence is a deprivation.<br /><br />For instance, if a natural disaster strikes somewhere, we naturally feel bad for the victims and we also often feel glad that there were not even more people in the affected area (3) because otherwise, it would have been bad for them, too. On the other hand, if we discover a beautiful empty island, we don't feel bad for the non-existent natives for missing out on all that beauty (4).<br /><br />Re: inclinations. It goes both ways. See my reply to Jim about meaning.CMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post-43235156651328520622010-08-22T00:30:08.932-07:002010-08-22T00:30:08.932-07:00Jim -
thanks for the encouragement. I can't ...Jim - <br /><br />thanks for the encouragement. I can't say I don't miss thinking there is an omnipotent being out there who cares about my petty affairs, but examining the evidence has left me with the conviction that belief in such a being is unwarranted. <br /><br />Re: hell. I used to read a lot of C.S. Lewis, so I know exactly what you are talking about. However, I now know from personal experience that he was wrong. I was much happier believing life had some sort of ultimate meaning (of course, that doesn't undermine the epistemic validity of atheism). But it's not like I can just make myself believe in God again and consequently care about what his will might be, even though I have a motive to believe. <br /><br />Even if your children were free in that sense, their freedom is a product of their existence, and their existence is a product of your reproductive choices. So my question still applies.CMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post-42764123262051515232010-08-21T12:29:44.871-07:002010-08-21T12:29:44.871-07:00Just as a side question (which is probably address...Just as a side question (which is probably addressed in that book none of us has read), how can existence be harmful? It seems odd that harm could be inflicted on a being that doesn't exist, simply by virtue of its coming into being.<br /><br />"But we inflict harm on not-yet-existing people every day! Look at what happened with Agent Orange." Yes, but that's a modification of potential existence, not existence as such - which seems to be Benatar's contention. Existence = harmful.<br /><br />It's interesting that folks who are pessimistic by nature have an interest in this book (myself included), and yet are inclined to oppose its thesis. My soap-box suspicion is that we distinguish between our inclinations and the facts; we may feel down about the world and all that, but we recognize that it's our *personal* sentiment and are loath to generalize it. Peirce mentions a woman he knew who later committed suicide; she told him she only found her own existence intolerable, not the world's.jacob longshorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00889229474841715676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post-63694795713604683342010-08-21T11:14:32.658-07:002010-08-21T11:14:32.658-07:00Hi CM, thanks for commenting. My view on hell, whi...Hi CM, thanks for commenting. My view on hell, which I think is pretty standard Christian fare, is that it ultimately rests on the individual's choice to accept or reject God. C. S. Lewis wrote (in <i>The Great Divorce</i>) something to the effect, "There are only two kinds of people, in the end. Those who say to God 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says '<i>Thy</i> will be done.' All that are in hell choose it. Without that self choice there could be no hell."<br /><br />So my concern for my children would be that they might choose to reject God. This worry, therefore, is not a product of their <i>existence</i> but of their <i>freedom</i>. And my views on whether it was wise of God to give us free will cannot be expressed quickly.<br /><br />You're right that my take on optimism vs. pessimism was too simplistic, but I found myself writing a much longer blog post to get into it, and then decided to just cut the majority of it.<br /><br />I hope you don't mind me saying it, but I encourage you (and the other Jim) to reconsider Christianity. I came into it with a view somewhat similar to what you hold now, so I was very predisposed to reject Christianity because of its view on the value of life. But I argued myself into it. In fact my attempt to refute Christianity has transmogrified into my pursuit of a PhD in philosophy. My point being that it's possible to be an intellectually fulfilled Christian.Jim S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15538540873375357030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post-71930487187467920392010-08-21T07:32:31.384-07:002010-08-21T07:32:31.384-07:00WTF! I reveiwed that book @ moi's blog too AND...WTF! I reveiwed that book @ moi's blog too AND also didn't read it.<br /><br />Atheists and Christians DO have somethings in common.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03037704048671379868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post-69542221663285482002010-08-19T14:54:28.307-07:002010-08-19T14:54:28.307-07:00Most people who review this book haven't read ...Most people who review this book haven't read it, so you are not alone:)<br /><br />If you had read the book, you would know that the author does not claim that negative things negate whatever positive things happen in a life. Rather, as the blurb you quote says, those positive things cannot be considered an advantage over never existing because if you had never existed, you wouldn't miss them. <br /><br />As a Christian, don't you worry about the possibility that your children will end up in hell? I'm not sure what your particular beliefs on this are, but the Bible seems to imply that few will be saved, so there is a very good chance that your children are hell-bound. How do you justify the choice to have them, given that possibility?<br /><br />You should check out <a rel="nofollow">antinatalism.net</a>. Jim, the host, advocates non-procreation for philanthropic reasons and has also published a <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Antinatalist-Jim-Crawford/dp/1616583452/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1282253729&sr=8-1-spell" rel="nofollow">book</a> on the subject. Jim was a Christian for many years, and even though he is now an atheist, as well as most of the commenters, he understands the Christian perspective. I myself am an ex-Christian, as well. <br /><br />As far as optimism and pessimism goes... I think you present a false dichotomy. It's possible to be overly optimistic and possible to be overly pessimistic, sometimes simultaneously.CMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6672880129970799148.post-58059178873881355082010-08-16T12:05:55.884-07:002010-08-16T12:05:55.884-07:00Hear him, hear him! I love the fact that you allow...Hear him, hear him! I love the fact that you allow yourself to be convinced out of pesimissim by the examples of your wife and children. I often find myself consciously allowing myself to be convinced by people that I respect, even though it goes against what I am thinking. I rationalize this by acknowledging that I am often wrong and that I prefer the way of looking at the world that is more pleasant and agreeable. For example, sometimes my pastor will teach something that I might question, but I decide to allow myself to be convinced because I respect him and his life example. Moreover, it is possible that he might be right and I might be wrong. And, furthermore, if he is right, then the world is a much happier place than I would have otherwise seen it. I believe this is the sense of Hebrews 13:17, where we are asked to submit to our leaders in the church.Tysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03676262563581475175noreply@blogger.com